at one point when I was a kid I noticed they would go between sets where they would have the big ramp and one with no ramp the curtain was ground level. I used to also notice when they would go no ramp vehicles would be driven in. Any correlation?
Posted on 5/13 6:19 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by caldonna: We should think about getting a bunch of us together for an Orangebloods Cauliflower Alley convention in Austin.
Esoteric, I find the stuff you production guys do as minor miracles. It must've been a righteous pain in the scrotum to build the haunted ring that bounced up and down, or gimmicking the ring to collapse when Brock superplexed Wight AFTER a whole wrestling card and a 20 minute match.
I remember a show we had where Sabu was wrestling Terry Funk. Back then, Brunk loved doing moonsaults through tables. Well, he usually used gimmicked particle board tables. One of the greenhorns in production wasn't paying attention and swapped out the announce table with one of Sabu's. Ours was made with layered plywood (the sort you find at church picnics. Sabu drags one table, climbs the ropes, and breaks it with no trouble. The second is our table (I noticed it too late). Sabu moonsauts it, and id doesn't budge. Terry does it again. Still nothing. He does it again. Three strikes.
By know, he is really hurting, but dammit, he was going to break the table. Brunk climbs the ropes one last time and does a Bombs Away. The table finally breaks.
Backstage, Sabu was furious. His shins were bruised badly, he was in serious pain, and he had a scratched up by the plywood. The greenhorn was nowhere to be found. We never saw him again.
Cg
This post was edited on 5/13 5:26 PM by caldonna
Yeah, those particle board tables will break if you fill your plate too much. Sometimes we would have 10 or 15 of them under the stage most of the time. Some young kid on the local crew got to unload them.
The trick to the superplex was the stage hand under the ring the whole card. The spot where Brock was going to drop him was reinforced temporarily for the rest of the card, and then when it was time, he removed the reinforcement.
But the Mick Foley slam through the ring was not rigged. We thought he might have died. But that happened a few times with Mick.
I hated setting up the specialty matches. The elimination chamber was really funny when we were trying to set it up for the first time. There were about 5 of us with over 150 years of experience between us. We could not get the stupid thing figured out. All we had was an artists sketch and a big pile of steel fencing materials, chain, and a welder. It took us about 48 hours of straight work to figure it out and another week to assemble it.
That sucked.
When the wrestlers were trying it out, several of them had problems. RVD went up to see how it would look for the frog splash (where he famously injured Paul). He said "cool" right before he misstepped and fell on to the gym mats.
Mike
Posted on 5/13 6:29 PM | IP: Logged
I remember watching Foley's HITC match. I had a hunch Mick was going do something crazy. When he got thrown off the top, I knew it was set up (and told the people I was with). When he went through the cage, you could tell it was an accident, especially when the chair hit him in the face. Who went Funk and everyone else to fight with Mark to stall to give Mick time?
How the Hell did you guys ever avoid a Metallica moment with the pyros?
Cg
Posted on 5/13 6:40 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by 40acrefanatic: Mike -
at one point when I was a kid I noticed they would go between sets where they would have the big ramp and one with no ramp the curtain was ground level. I used to also notice when they would go no ramp vehicles would be driven in. Any correlation?
I am sorry, I am not quite understanding your post.
Mike
Posted on 5/13 6:45 PM | IP: Logged
What I mean was you had the regular set with the titantron and the curtain and you come out and come down a ramp to the ring. When I was watching Raw, week to week it would go from ramp to no ramp.
When it had no ramp the curtain where the wrestlers ame out was ground level and I noticed when they had that setup there was always a vehicle driven in. I was just wondering if it started being set up that way to accomodate vehicles.
Posted on 5/13 6:56 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by caldonna: I remember watching Foley's HITC match. I had a hunch Mick was going do something crazy. When he got thrown off the top, I knew it was set up (and told the people I was with). When he went through the cage, you could tell it was an accident, especially when the chair hit him in the face. Who went Funk and everyone else to fight with Mark to stall to give Mick time?
How the Hell did you guys ever avoid a Metallica moment with the pyros?
Cg
Yeah, we knew Mick was going to be slammed on top of the cage, and I think he knew he would go through. He wasn't upset at the crew or anything. Of course they warned him it was very dangerous but you know Mick. The riggers knew he would go through unless he landed on the truss. Well he landed right in the middle of the cage section, so down he went. The story that the designer told him that it would sag and not break was a lie. Placement on that was very important. Which is odd that they missed, because Mark was a very precise wrestler (hence why he was able to continue using the pile driver after it was banned).
I forgot what happened. We were all freaked out wondering if Mick was dead, if we needed to send paramedics, or what. No one had to tell Mark to stall, he was good, but I forget what all was going on. I was a spot operator and I could see down into the cage. It really looked like he had broken his neck. His tooth ended up in his nose.
There is a funny story that when Mick really started getting his wits about him back stage he asked Mark "did I use the thumbtacks?", Mark said "are you kidding?" and pointed at Mick's arm. There in his arm were still half a dozen thumbtacks.
I tell you what cal, the guys who got pyro were only the best performers. Then they would practice it a lot with compressed air.
Some guys, like RVD, had very little interaction with their pyro. Some guys, like Bautista, have pyro that although it looks cool was no risk of hurting anyone. Plus, with all the safeties there was very little chance of an accident. We had some of the best pyro guys in the business setting it up and running it. I know for Bautista's setup two guys were on deadman switches before the effect could be cued. Kane's setup had tow deadman switches and the ignition button was under one of those locking plastic lids like they use for nuclear missile launch buttons. I think again Tazz was the most in danger of anyone I saw.
Mike
Posted on 5/13 7:19 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by 40acrefanatic: What I mean was you had the regular set with the titantron and the curtain and you come out and come down a ramp to the ring. When I was watching Raw, week to week it would go from ramp to no ramp.
When it had no ramp the curtain where the wrestlers ame out was ground level and I noticed when they had that setup there was always a vehicle driven in. I was just wondering if it started being set up that way to accomodate vehicles.
Oh! That is an interesting thought. But when we were on tour it all depended on the venue. In some venues we couldn't fit the staging in correctly or it would not work because of the floor level. In a few cases the floor had a bow in it which you can see on TV. The sometimes it was about manpower. In the smaller cities we couldn't get enough hands, so no stage. When we were out it had more to do with venue than anything. Now after I left, I don't know.
Posted on 5/13 7:26 PM | IP: Logged
MAkes sense probably just a coincidence just seemed like when they had it set up that way it was almost an indicator someone would be driving something in.
Posted on 5/13 7:29 PM | IP: Logged
Anyone have any insight on what happened to Owen Hart?
Posted on 5/13 7:41 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by jpj927: Anyone have any insight on what happened to Owen Hart?
Well there are a few things to consider. First off, any death is a tragic one. That being said, stunts are dangerous by their very nature.
In Owen's case WWF wanted a stunt. They wanted it to match his character. They would fly him in, he would get "tangled" in the ropes, click a quick release, and fall face first about 8 feet to the ring.
Well, in 1999 there were no harnesses made for flying people. Heck, now there is only one company that makes them. So you adapted other things to fit. WWF brought in some of the best minds at this sort of thing to consult. They decided to use a climbing harness (the working harness that we used were too bulky and Owen would not have time to remove it), with a quick release clip. This was NOT the intended purpose for this equipment, however it SHOULD have worked just fine. People scale mountains with these things and Owen was only being lowered, not really flown.
What made this so difficult though was the costume plus the harness plus the cape. Then you attach the rope and there are a lot of moving parts.
Well, he couldn't use the safties because of the need for the quick release (to compare the lines we used to fly in the Back Street Boys on their tour had attachment points in three places) so there was literally 1 quick release link holding him in place.
He was warned not to move too much, he knew were the release was. He was made aware of the situation, but if you know anything about Owen, he loved to put on a show. Now, he was hesitant because of the height, but it was more like the moment when you look over the edge on a bungee jump. He knew he was going.
So they get the harness on him. They get him secured and start him down. They should not have let him go. He was not a professional stunt man. He was very fidgety and anxious. On the safety scale the stunt was very risky (not unsafe, but there was a large risk). But he knew the risks and wanted to do it. Everything was rigged correctly. The rig did not fail, in fact it worked exactly as it was supposed to. On the way down things got tangled up a bit, and Owen was being lowered in the dark (another mistake) and in an attempt to get untangled Owen must have tripped the quick release (in the investigation following the link was still working and was not found to be defective in any way) and it gave way. His estimated fall was 60 feet give or take. Falls from as little as 8 feet can be deadly. Usually anything over 40 is sure death. As riggers we used to joke that if we started to fall off of our 30' ladder we would just go head first and get it over with.
Owen hit the ropes first unfortunately and then fell into the ring. So he was not killed on impact. I really hate to think about it. I hope he was unconscious. He bled out internally. It didn't take long, maybe 10 minutes. He was alive when the paramedics got to the ring, but he was in arrest when they got him to the ambulance. He was DOA at the hospital. It was a horrific and tragic accident.
God rest his soul.
Mike
Posted on 5/13 8:48 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by Esoteric2112:
Originally posted by jpj927: Anyone have any insight on what happened to Owen Hart?
Well there are a few things to consider. First off, any death is a tragic one. That being said, stunts are dangerous by their very nature.
In Owen's case WWF wanted a stunt. They wanted it to match his character. They would fly him in, he would get "tangled" in the ropes, click a quick release, and fall face first about 8 feet to the ring.
Well, in 1999 there were no harnesses made for flying people. Heck, now there is only one company that makes them. So you adapted other things to fit. WWF brought in some of the best minds at this sort of thing to consult. They decided to use a climbing harness (the working harness that we used were too bulky and Owen would not have time to remove it), with a quick release clip. This was NOT the intended purpose for this equipment, however it SHOULD have worked just fine. People scale mountains with these things and Owen was only being lowered, not really flown.
What made this so difficult though was the costume plus the harness plus the cape. Then you attach the rope and there are a lot of moving parts.
Well, he couldn't use the safties because of the need for the quick release (to compare the lines we used to fly in the Back Street Boys on their tour had attachment points in three places) so there was literally 1 quick release link holding him in place.
He was warned not to move too much, he knew were the release was. He was made aware of the situation, but if you know anything about Owen, he loved to put on a show. Now, he was hesitant because of the height, but it was more like the moment when you look over the edge on a bungee jump. He knew he was going.
So they get the harness on him. They get him secured and start him down. They should not have let him go. He was not a professional stunt man. He was very fidgety and anxious. On the safety scale the stunt was very risky (not unsafe, but there was a large risk). But he knew the risks and wanted to do it. Everything was rigged correctly. The rig did not fail, in fact it worked exactly as it was supposed to. On the way down things got tangled up a bit, and Owen was being lowered in the dark (another mistake) and in an attempt to get untangled Owen must have tripped the quick release (in the investigation following the link was still working and was not found to be defective in any way) and it gave way. His estimated fall was 60 feet give or take. Falls from as little as 8 feet can be deadly. Usually anything over 40 is sure death. As riggers we used to joke that if we started to fall off of our 30' ladder we would just go head first and get it over with.
Owen hit the ropes first unfortunately and then fell into the ring. So he was not killed on impact. I really hate to think about it. I hope he was unconscious. He bled out internally. It didn't take long, maybe 10 minutes. He was alive when the paramedics got to the ring, but he was in arrest when they got him to the ambulance. He was DOA at the hospital. It was a horrific and tragic accident.
God rest his soul.
Mike
Now, for the booker's side: Wrestling was pretty stable in its format for a very, very long time. ECW started to push the envelope in the 90's, as did FMW and IWeA-Japan. That put us all in a bad spot, because the fans started expect more and more from a show. Wrestling wasn't enough anymore. Fans wanted the equivalent of an action flick. It's a very tough spot to be in.
Wrestlers are aware of that, too, and are willing to push the envelope as far as they can. We try to keep them as safe as possible, but God it's tough. I wouldn't have let Owen "fly." Hell, I probably would have suggested we could have the same spots if he came in on a zip line. It used to scare the bejeezus out of me to see Steve Borden come down on that dead man's line on Nitro. If a brake failed...
We have to balance exciting the fans with keeping the boys save. Sadly, we don't always succeed.
Now, as for the show going on...I don't know if I could have done that. I understand it was a full house, and a pay per view, but there was a man dying in the ring. People were traumatized because they saw him falling. I can understand going on with the show, I just don't know if I would have.
Cg
Posted on 5/13 9:14 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by caldonna:
Originally posted by Esoteric2112:
Originally posted by jpj927: Anyone have any insight on what happened to Owen Hart?
Well there are a few things to consider. First off, any death is a tragic one. That being said, stunts are dangerous by their very nature.
In Owen's case WWF wanted a stunt. They wanted it to match his character. They would fly him in, he would get "tangled" in the ropes, click a quick release, and fall face first about 8 feet to the ring.
Well, in 1999 there were no harnesses made for flying people. Heck, now there is only one company that makes them. So you adapted other things to fit. WWF brought in some of the best minds at this sort of thing to consult. They decided to use a climbing harness (the working harness that we used were too bulky and Owen would not have time to remove it), with a quick release clip. This was NOT the intended purpose for this equipment, however it SHOULD have worked just fine. People scale mountains with these things and Owen was only being lowered, not really flown.
What made this so difficult though was the costume plus the harness plus the cape. Then you attach the rope and there are a lot of moving parts.
Well, he couldn't use the safties because of the need for the quick release (to compare the lines we used to fly in the Back Street Boys on their tour had attachment points in three places) so there was literally 1 quick release link holding him in place.
He was warned not to move too much, he knew were the release was. He was made aware of the situation, but if you know anything about Owen, he loved to put on a show. Now, he was hesitant because of the height, but it was more like the moment when you look over the edge on a bungee jump. He knew he was going.
So they get the harness on him. They get him secured and start him down. They should not have let him go. He was not a professional stunt man. He was very fidgety and anxious. On the safety scale the stunt was very risky (not unsafe, but there was a large risk). But he knew the risks and wanted to do it. Everything was rigged correctly. The rig did not fail, in fact it worked exactly as it was supposed to. On the way down things got tangled up a bit, and Owen was being lowered in the dark (another mistake) and in an attempt to get untangled Owen must have tripped the quick release (in the investigation following the link was still working and was not found to be defective in any way) and it gave way. His estimated fall was 60 feet give or take. Falls from as little as 8 feet can be deadly. Usually anything over 40 is sure death. As riggers we used to joke that if we started to fall off of our 30' ladder we would just go head first and get it over with.
Owen hit the ropes first unfortunately and then fell into the ring. So he was not killed on impact. I really hate to think about it. I hope he was unconscious. He bled out internally. It didn't take long, maybe 10 minutes. He was alive when the paramedics got to the ring, but he was in arrest when they got him to the ambulance. He was DOA at the hospital. It was a horrific and tragic accident.
God rest his soul.
Mike
Now, for the booker's side: Wrestling was pretty stable in its format for a very, very long time. ECW started to push the envelope in the 90's, as did FMW and IWeA-Japan. That put us all in a bad spot, because the fans started expect more and more from a show. Wrestling wasn't enough anymore. Fans wanted the equivalent of an action flick. It's a very tough spot to be in.
Wrestlers are aware of that, too, and are willing to push the envelope as far as they can. We try to keep them as safe as possible, but God it's tough. I wouldn't have let Owen "fly." Hell, I probably would have suggested we could have the same spots if he came in on a zip line. It used to scare the bejeezus out of me to see Steve Borden come down on that dead man's line on Nitro. If a brake failed...
We have to balance exciting the fans with keeping the boys save. Sadly, we don't always succeed.
Now, as for the show going on...I don't know if I could have done that. I understand it was a full house, and a pay per view, but there was a man dying in the ring. People were traumatized because they saw him falling. I can understand going on with the show, I just don't know if I would have.
Cg
It was so dark in there, I am not sure anyone could see much of anything. Even with the video playing on the big screen I am not sure there was enough light. Not saying they didn't see, and certainly not saying that they should or shouldn't have continued the show, but only a couple of the crew even saw it, so I can't imagine many fans saw it.
That being said, yes the limits keep getting pushed and it is harder and harder to keep these guys safe. Some things (like the zip lines) are about 99% foolproof. This stunt was probably 80% because of all the moving parts. No way I would have sent him down. But everything was done by the book. It was one of those things where a thousand small things added up to a huge disaster.
It is like I told all my clients back when I had my design business. You have to know what your gear will do and what it won't do. To do the stunt they wanted with a proper safety factor can not be done. So you either go with it, or you don't do the stunt.
Cirque Du Soleil does things that are 1000x more dangerous, but those guys are trained acrobats and stunt people. Wrestlers (mostly) are neither of those.
I am with you cal, I couldn't have pulled the trigger.
Mike
Posted on 5/13 9:26 PM | IP: Logged
Wow....thanks to both of you for sharing that. Very tragic event.
Posted on 5/13 10:01 PM | IP: Logged
Let me add this qualification: Vince McMahon's company is too big for him not to be willing to make the needed expenditure to make everything top shelf. I don't doubt that he hires the best and most qualified to produce his shows. If Mike says they did everything by the book, that is more than good enough for me. Like he implied, I doubt they could have done anything else. It was a horrible, horrible accident that ironically happened to a man from a family Vince has had history with.
Like I said, Mike, I've seen production staff perform miracles. All of you have my respect.
Cg
Posted on 5/13 10:23 PM | IP: Logged
Well the ideas all start with the writers/bookers. A bad creative staff will kill a company (this has always been true) and a bad production staff will as well (this has just recently become true). Its all a team effort trying to put the best product out there.
I do remember one time when Mark's bike broke down about 2 hours before a show. It was some part that they couldn't get for a couple of days. So one of the stage managers makes a call to a friend who owned a Harley dealership in town. A couple of us took "Vince's car" (a rented Caddy being used for a promo) over to the Harley dealership and one of the stage hands rode the bike back to the arena. We got there about 40 minutes before show time. Mark was not happy but he went with it.
Well I guess he wasn't used to the accelerator on this type of bike because he nearly rode it right off the stage.
Mike
Posted on 5/13 10:33 PM | IP: Logged
I just watched a youtube video yesterday about the owen hart deal. It led me to all the tribute videos from the wrestlers and that was amazing. Who were owens friends among the wrestlers? I saw tributes from Road Dogg, The Rock and Stone Cold.
Posted on 5/13 10:34 PM | IP: Logged
Who didn't like Owen? He seemed pretty popular to me.
Mike
Posted on 5/13 10:35 PM | IP: Logged
He came across as quiet and reserved to me. Sometimes those personalities can rub people the wrong way.
I still love the "I am not a nugget"
What were some of your favorite moments from the show while you were there? Maybe something not so obvious. That Owen Hart story gave me chills man. I could ask you questions all day.
Posted on 5/13 10:45 PM | IP: Logged
From what I've heard, everyone loved Owen. He was sorta the anti-Bret, and the king of the ribs.
Stone Cold doesn't have many friends in the business, really. He's more like the Texas Rattlesnake than people realize. His best friend in the business was Brian Pillman. He was absolutely crushed when Pillman diead. Foley and he were pretty tight. He had made peace with Owen about the piledriver a couple of years before Owen fell.
He loves kids, though, and would do anything for them.
Posted on 5/13 10:49 PM | IP: Logged
Best moment?
All the wrestlers coming out at the post 9/11 RAW.
/thread
Mike
I will post a few others later though.
Posted on 5/13 10:53 PM | IP: Logged
I thought the best bit ever was win DX did the fake Nation and Jason Sensation was the fake Owen Hart
"I am not a nugget, i'm a blackhart, a winner, a sole survivor"
Originally posted by caldonna: From what I've heard, everyone loved Owen. He was sorta the anti-Bret, and the king of the ribs.
Stone Cold doesn't have many friends in the business, really. He's more like the Texas Rattlesnake than people realize. His best friend in the business was Brian Pillman. He was absolutely crushed when Pillman diead. Foley and he were pretty tight. He had made peace with Owen about the piledriver a couple of years before Owen fell.
He loves kids, though, and would do anything for them.
So was the pile driver incident intentional then?
Posted on 5/14 7:44 AM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by jpj927:
Originally posted by caldonna: From what I've heard, everyone loved Owen. He was sorta the anti-Bret, and the king of the ribs.
Stone Cold doesn't have many friends in the business, really. He's more like the Texas Rattlesnake than people realize. His best friend in the business was Brian Pillman. He was absolutely crushed when Pillman diead. Foley and he were pretty tight. He had made peace with Owen about the piledriver a couple of years before Owen fell.
He loves kids, though, and would do anything for them.
So was the pile driver incident intentional then?
No, it was an accident, but it was due to carelessness. Piledrivers, shoulderbreakers, powerbombs are different from most wrestling moves because the guy taking the hold is not in control. They are relying on the dude executing the move to protect them. Austin's head was way, way out of position, and that was Owen's fault. In his defense, there isn't much you can do at that point, except maybe flop forward in a sort of Styles clash type of move and hope the crowd doesn't crap on the move, but no one really knows if Owen was realy aware of Austin's positioning. Austin was pretty made because it actually did break his neck.
Bruno Sammartino had the same issue with Stan Hansen. Hansen went for a body slam and didn't turn Bruno well enough to protect him. He essentially lawn-darted Sammartino
In contrast, they did HUGE business off that accident.
Cg
Posted on 5/14 9:35 AM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by caldonna:
Originally posted by jpj927:
Originally posted by caldonna: From what I've heard, everyone loved Owen. He was sorta the anti-Bret, and the king of the ribs.
Stone Cold doesn't have many friends in the business, really. He's more like the Texas Rattlesnake than people realize. His best friend in the business was Brian Pillman. He was absolutely crushed when Pillman diead. Foley and he were pretty tight. He had made peace with Owen about the piledriver a couple of years before Owen fell.
He loves kids, though, and would do anything for them.
So was the pile driver incident intentional then?
No, it was an accident, but it was due to carelessness. Piledrivers, shoulderbreakers, powerbombs are different from most wrestling moves because the guy taking the hold is not in control. They are relying on the dude executing the move to protect them. Austin's head was way, way out of position, and that was Owen's fault. In his defense, there isn't much you can do at that point, except maybe flop forward in a sort of Styles clash type of move and hope the crowd doesn't crap on the move, but no one really knows if Owen was realy aware of Austin's positioning. Austin was pretty made because it actually did break his neck.
Bruno Sammartino had the same issue with Stan Hansen. Hansen went for a body slam and didn't turn Bruno well enough to protect him. He essentially lawn-darted Sammartino
In contrast, they did HUGE business off that accident.
Cg
Yeah, the guys hate any move like there where they have to trust another guy implicitly. I was also a little misleading about Mark and his piledriver. Not only does he execute his very well (this part was true) but the mechanics are a little different and it is less risky than a normal piledriver.
Yeah, I think Owen should have bailed on the move. The guys that would talk openly about it said (to me) that he should have known and bailed on the move. But, he is inverted in a hold so who knows what is going through your mind at that point and it was Austin's responsibility to protect Owen.
Some guys careers don't even make it to the "majors" because of moves like the piledriver.
Mike
Posted on 5/14 12:30 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by Esoteric2112: Best moment?
All the wrestlers coming out at the post 9/11 RAW.
/thread
Mike
I will post a few others later though.
Just watched the post 9/11 youtube videos. Very awesome. That quickly turned into another hour of watching youtube videos. Watched the Eddie Guerrero tribute, and it was very hard to watch Chris Benoit sit there and just break down on camera. Very chilling.
Posted on 5/14 1:04 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by fatfootball101:
Originally posted by Esoteric2112: Best moment?
All the wrestlers coming out at the post 9/11 RAW.
/thread
Mike
I will post a few others later though.
Just watched the post 9/11 youtube videos. Very awesome. That quickly turned into another hour of watching youtube videos. Watched the Eddie Guerrero tribute, and it was very hard to watch Chris Benoit sit there and just break down on camera. Very chilling.
Yup, like I wrote earlier, Eddie was Benoit's best friend and his anchor. When Eddie passed away, there was no one left to hold Chris in check. That's when Chris, who Chavito once told was always paranoid about his status in wrestling, started to really deteriorate.
Dusty Wolfe, who wrestled everyone that mattered in teh 80's, 90's, and 00's, used to tell me everhone hate, HATED, those damn snap suplexes that all the Hart Dungeon guys did. You had no time to set yourself for the landing, and it would knock the hell out of you. On the other hand, everyone loved Randy Savage's big elbow off the top. You never felt a thing.
Mikw, you might agree with me on this: it's funny how, if you've been around it, you can tell when a match has gone to hell or a move was botched. It's kinda funny when both guys don't know what to do when they blow a spot, eh?
Cg
Posted on 5/14 1:18 PM | IP: Logged
What was Ken shamrock like and how did the rest of the superstars get along with him, and how did he transition from real shootfighter to an entertaining wrestler
Posted on 5/14 1:49 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by 40acrefanatic: I thought the best bit ever was win DX did the fake Nation and Jason Sensation was the fake Owen Hart
"I am not a nugget, i'm a blackhart, a winner, a sole survivor"
OMG. I've been searching for this for the longest time.
It's crazy to look back and think I never missed a Monday show. To be young again.
Posted on 5/14 2:44 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by 40acrefanatic: What was Ken shamrock like and how did the rest of the superstars get along with him, and how did he transition from real shootfighter to an entertaining wrestler
Actually, Ken was a wrestler before he was a shooter. He was Vince Torelli in the old South Atlantic Pro Wrestling promotion. He also did some worked matches in Japan before he joined Pnacrase. From all accounts, he had a lot of respect in the lockerroom as both a worker and as someone you didn't cock around with.
A funny story about Angle: when the booking committee was talking about putting the title on him, Kevin Nash cited the fact that Angle was only 5'10 and openly asked if anyone would consider him credible. Gerald Brisco looked at him and asked, "You wanna roll around with him in the ring for five minutes and see how credible he is?"
Nash dropped the question right then and there.
I'm going to be offline until tomorrow evening, so I'm going to have to hope Mike can "carry the match." I just want to let you know that I've really enjoyed this thread. It is an all time classic. Thanks to all for the trip.
I want to see this thread top 300 posts by the time I get back. Cg
Posted on 5/14 2:58 PM | IP: Logged
Used to love watching Ken Shamrock. He is what got me into UFC originally.
This might sound like a stupid question, but are all match endings the intended result? And if no, how many would you say went against script? And were they intentionally off script, or was it unintentional type stuff?
Posted on 5/14 3:12 PM | IP: Logged
Aside from the Hart/Micheals incident, I know of one double cross:
When Wendi Ricther wa Woman's Champion during the Rock-n-Wrestling era, McMahon wanted to get her under contract. Richter was asking more than Vince was offeriing, so they could never make a deal.
One night, in Madison Square Garden, Richter was defending against the Spider Woman (Leilani Kai). Vince was at the Gorilla position and stuck a final contract in her face. Of course, Richter didn't sigh. During her match, she goes to bodyslam the Spider Woman, and SW rolls her iinto a small package, a typical sequence. SW cinches down on the move, and the ref calls a fast three. Title to the Spider Woman, who then unmasks to reveal Fabulous Moolah.
I've seen a ton of matches that ended shorter than they should have, due to injury. Owen-Steve Austin, of course. Beth Phoenix and Candice Michelle had a shortened match when Michelle got her feet caught on the top rope while trying a 450 and faceplanted herself. Sid's match with Scott Steiner where he shattered his ankle (THAT was greusom).
The running booking joke was that if the guy going over drops dead in the ring, then the other guy better roll him on top for the pin.
Cg
Posted on 5/14 3:35 PM | IP: Logged
Caldonna, I think I speak for all when I say that we've really enjoyed everything you've brought to this thread. You and Esoteric are the two main pieces that have made this thread what it is. A lot of thanks to you and I know we'd all like to hear more stories if you've got them.
I know I'd like to hear stuff on the Macho Man or Sid Vicious if you've got any. We'll keep this thread going for ya.
Posted on 5/14 4:33 PM | IP: Logged
I actually figured we would hear a couple crazy stories about the Steiner Brothers. They seemed crazy.
Posted on 5/14 4:35 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by moosehead: JYD - another tradegy in the sport.
Who is JDY?
Posted on 5/14 4:49 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by fatfootball101: I actually figured we would hear a couple crazy stories about the Steiner Brothers. They seemed crazy.
I'd like to know what material Scott Steiner's biceps are made of.
Posted on 5/14 5:28 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by HOOK'EM DAVE:
Originally posted by moosehead: JYD - another tradegy in the sport.
Who is JDY?
I believe he is talking about the Junk Yard Dog.
Posted on 5/14 6:21 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by caldonna:
Originally posted by fatfootball101:
Originally posted by Esoteric2112: Best moment?
All the wrestlers coming out at the post 9/11 RAW.
/thread
Mike
I will post a few others later though.
Just watched the post 9/11 youtube videos. Very awesome. That quickly turned into another hour of watching youtube videos. Watched the Eddie Guerrero tribute, and it was very hard to watch Chris Benoit sit there and just break down on camera. Very chilling.
Yup, like I wrote earlier, Eddie was Benoit's best friend and his anchor. When Eddie passed away, there was no one left to hold Chris in check. That's when Chris, who Chavito once told was always paranoid about his status in wrestling, started to really deteriorate.
Dusty Wolfe, who wrestled everyone that mattered in teh 80's, 90's, and 00's, used to tell me everhone hate, HATED, those damn snap suplexes that all the Hart Dungeon guys did. You had no time to set yourself for the landing, and it would knock the hell out of you. On the other hand, everyone loved Randy Savage's big elbow off the top. You never felt a thing.
Mikw, you might agree with me on this: it's funny how, if you've been around it, you can tell when a match has gone to hell or a move was botched. It's kinda funny when both guys don't know what to do when they blow a spot, eh?
Cg
Oh man, they get so lost when they blow a spot. Some guys (the undercard guys at house shows) will actually look around for someone to tell them what to do. John Hennigan (Johnny Nitro) once when we was still on the house show level actually yelled to the ringside stage manager "what am I supposed to do?" when a local guy missed his run in. He wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed.
When Lesnar almost killed himself on the moonsault I remember saying "I am glad he is in there with Kurt.
Yeah, its not very hard to tell when they botch something. After a while too, you know some guys have a rep for things going wrong. Some guys couldn't remember more than 3 or 4 moves in a row, so their matches were 3 moves, hold, 4 moves, hold, 3 moves, hold, 3 moves, pin.
Mike
This post was edited on 5/14 6:38 PM by Esoteric2112
Posted on 5/14 6:35 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by fatfootball101:
Originally posted by Esoteric2112: Best moment?
All the wrestlers coming out at the post 9/11 RAW.
/thread
Mike
I will post a few others later though.
Just watched the post 9/11 youtube videos. Very awesome. That quickly turned into another hour of watching youtube videos. Watched the Eddie Guerrero tribute, and it was very hard to watch Chris Benoit sit there and just break down on camera. Very chilling.
The best part is that was all genuine emotion. Those guys were really torn up.
It also shot Kurt Angle to the top of the sport. But you can't blame him for that.
Mike
Posted on 5/14 6:40 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by caldonna:
Originally posted by 40acrefanatic: What was Ken shamrock like and how did the rest of the superstars get along with him, and how did he transition from real shootfighter to an entertaining wrestler
Actually, Ken was a wrestler before he was a shooter. He was Vince Torelli in the old South Atlantic Pro Wrestling promotion. He also did some worked matches in Japan before he joined Pnacrase. From all accounts, he had a lot of respect in the lockerroom as both a worker and as someone you didn't cock around with.
A funny story about Angle: when the booking committee was talking about putting the title on him, Kevin Nash cited the fact that Angle was only 5'10 and openly asked if anyone would consider him credible. Gerald Brisco looked at him and asked, "You wanna roll around with him in the ring for five minutes and see how credible he is?"
Nash dropped the question right then and there.
I'm going to be offline until tomorrow evening, so I'm going to have to hope Mike can "carry the match." I just want to let you know that I've really enjoyed this thread. It is an all time classic. Thanks to all for the trip.
I want to see this thread top 300 posts by the time I get back. Cg
I was offline too. Yeah, I remember Nash (and a couple of others) talking about Kurt being believable. First of all they couldn't not do it. At his ascension the wrestling community NEEDED him to be Champion. But in reality, he was probably one of the most qualified champions ever. He was not someone to be screwed with for real.
Ken was another guy no one dicked with. But on his return from MMA he just never got over. The guy could not cut a promo if his life depended on it. If he had been in the day before TV and promos then Ken would have had a more successful wrestling career, because he was great in the ring, but that was just not enough anymore.
Plus he was a PAIN to film with. He couldn't adlib and he couldn't remember a script to save his life. So no live promos and sometimes he would stand in front of the camera and just stare. It was so frustrating.
Mike
Posted on 5/14 6:48 PM | IP: Logged
Guys like the Rock were so good at talking on the mic, I got the feeling that it was natural, as in not scripted. Were the promos completely scripted, or did they kind of wing it too?
Posted on 5/14 7:28 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by caldonna: Aside from the Hart/Micheals incident, I know of one double cross:
When Wendi Ricther wa Woman's Champion during the Rock-n-Wrestling era, McMahon wanted to get her under contract. Richter was asking more than Vince was offeriing, so they could never make a deal.
One night, in Madison Square Garden, Richter was defending against the Spider Woman (Leilani Kai). Vince was at the Gorilla position and stuck a final contract in her face. Of course, Richter didn't sigh. During her match, she goes to bodyslam the Spider Woman, and SW rolls her iinto a small package, a typical sequence. SW cinches down on the move, and the ref calls a fast three. Title to the Spider Woman, who then unmasks to reveal Fabulous Moolah.
I've seen a ton of matches that ended shorter than they should have, due to injury. Owen-Steve Austin, of course. Beth Phoenix and Candice Michelle had a shortened match when Michelle got her feet caught on the top rope while trying a 450 and faceplanted herself. Sid's match with Scott Steiner where he shattered his ankle (THAT was greusom).
The running booking joke was that if the guy going over drops dead in the ring, then the other guy better roll him on top for the pin.
Cg
Yeah, you do NOT go off script. For early match endings because of injuries don't forget when Paul tore his quad. There was an audible *pop* when it happened. It was pretty gross.
I also remember a house show where the guy who was supposed to win slipped on the top rope, fell, and hit his head. Out cold. Well the jobber (a 300lb local guy) climbs to the top rope, and also "slips", goes down and pretends to be knocked out. The ref counted them both out. The booker was not happy at all.
Mike
Posted on 5/14 7:33 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by fatfootball101: Guys like the Rock were so good at talking on the mic, I got the feeling that it was natural, as in not scripted. Were the promos completely scripted, or did they kind of wing it too?
Little bit of both. Some guys were totally on script. Some guys you just gave them the idea they were supposed to communicate and they got it done. Some guys like Dwayne, Richard Fliehr, and guys like that had key phrases they had to work in, so you gave them room to do it. Some guys (RVD comes to mind) couldn't remember their own address, let alone a script. Add to that the fact that he was shyer than my 3 year old niece and he practically had to read off a prompter.
The problem with guys like Dwayne is sometimes they get so into it they forget about time. In fact, we once got a HUGE clock with bright red numbers for Dwayne. Didn't help.
Mike
Posted on 5/14 7:39 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by fatfootball101: I actually figured we would hear a couple crazy stories about the Steiner Brothers. They seemed crazy.
Never worked with either of them. All I know is later in his career he had no work rate at all. Guys had to put him on their back and carry him kicking and screaming to a good match.
Mikr
Posted on 5/14 7:40 PM | IP: Logged
I'd like to know what the promoters were saying when Vince decided to go national in the early 80's. I'm sure quite a few of them wanted him dead.
Posted on 5/14 8:17 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by caldonna:
Originally posted by fatfootball101:
Originally posted by Esoteric2112: Best moment?
All the wrestlers coming out at the post 9/11 RAW.
/thread
Mike
I will post a few others later though.
Just watched the post 9/11 youtube videos. Very awesome. That quickly turned into another hour of watching youtube videos. Watched the Eddie Guerrero tribute, and it was very hard to watch Chris Benoit sit there and just break down on camera. Very chilling.
Yup, like I wrote earlier, Eddie was Benoit's best friend and his anchor. When Eddie passed away, there was no one left to hold Chris in check. That's when Chris, who Chavito once told was always paranoid about his status in wrestling, started to really deteriorate.
Dusty Wolfe, who wrestled everyone that mattered in teh 80's, 90's, and 00's, used to tell me everhone hate, HATED, those damn snap suplexes that all the Hart Dungeon guys did. You had no time to set yourself for the landing, and it would knock the hell out of you. On the other hand, everyone loved Randy Savage's big elbow off the top. You never felt a thing.
Mikw, you might agree with me on this: it's funny how, if you've been around it, you can tell when a match has gone to hell or a move was botched. It's kinda funny when both guys don't know what to do when they blow a spot, eh?
Cg
Who is Dusty Wolfe? You guys have contributed so much to this thread, but sometimes it confuses me when you use real names.
Posted on 5/14 8:48 PM | IP: Logged
Great thread, and I haven't watched wrestling in a long time.
Thanks guys.
Posted on 5/14 10:08 PM | IP: Logged
I think if I remember, Dusty Wolfe was Disco Inferno.
Mike
Posted on 5/14 10:43 PM | IP: Logged
Fascinating thread. Thanks Guys!
Posted on 5/15 12:02 AM | IP: Logged
Dusty Wolfe was not Disco Inferno. Disco (Glenn Gilbertti) is about 10+ years younger than Dusty.
Originally posted by caldonna: Mongo is a real douche. Once, when he was golfing at Onion Creek, he and his buds went to the clubhouse and put a load on. When they left, Mongo had left his wallet, Rolex and his SUPER BOWL RING on the table. Jim Brewster, my buddy and fellow announcer, was the waiter who found everything. He showed it to the manager, who promptly called McMichaels. Mongo shows up, takes his stuff. The manager tells him who found the stuff, and mongo looks at Jim and says, "You were real smart turning shit in. You don't wanna know what would have happened if you'd kept anything." He left without even saying thanks. A real douche.
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